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What about your courts of law? I asked General Chiang. It is common knowledge to Chinese and foreigners alike. I said, that what the present courts dispense is something far from justice, and that China has no civil or criminal codes which are worthy of the name, and that so-called justice is in accord- ance with local custom of each individual village in China; that almost all judges in China live on what they can get out of their jobs (which are usually short lived) and not on their salaries (which are usually not paid); that foreigners in the country would be far from willing to submit to the ruling of this in- adequate system, and that their governments would probably be unwilling to make them submit to it as it exists at present.
We are prepared for that, stated General Chiang in reply. We have our civil and criminal codes drawn up which we are sure will be satisfactory to all. As the revolution progresses, these will be in- stituted, and they will not only guarantee the foreigner in China justice in accordance with our laws, but will guarantee the Chinese people justice from the foreigner, which is more important. The beating of Chinese with impunity by foreigners, and the security of the latter in so doing will be a thing of the past. Foreigners who beat Chinese in future will be punished in accordance with our laws, declared the Nation- alist chief, and such acts will not be looked upon with leniency.
What do you think of Dr. Wellington Koo's action in abrogating the Sino-Belgian Treaty? I asked General Chiang.
If
Dr. Koo was right, was his immediate reply, and the abrogation of this treaty will be made with Belgium which contains special privileges, he said further, and no status quo will be maintained. Belgium wishes to enter into a new treaty, this government is willing to enter into one with her, but upon an entirely new basis. We will execute no treaties such as were signed by former governments, nor will we continue to adhere to any treaties or agreements which were made with other nations by any government in China previous to that of the Nationalist Forces. Nor will we at any time recognize any treaties made now, unless they are over the signature of the Nationalist Government,
What about Extraterritoriality and the Foreign Concessions? was the next question.
If Extraterritoriality continues to exist in China, and if foreign Powers continue to exercise special privileges in this country in the form of administering and owning Concessions here under their own laws and outside of the jurisdiction of the Chinese Government, then the present revolution shall not be complete until these are entirely_abolished, stated General Chiang. It is just as great a part of the Revolutionary movement to abolish Extraterritoriality and Foreign Concessions as it is to stamp out the northern mili- tarists, he said further, and this Revolution will not come to an end until that has been done.
Don't you think it would be more satisfactory to all concerned if the relinquishing of special privi- leges in China were accomplished gradually, I asked, and that it could be done with mutual satisfaction over a period of years as the Chinese government machinery developed standard of recognized efficiency.
This is not an evolutionary movement, replied General Chiang. It is revolutionary. There will be no period of years, not one, or two, or three years. We small have equality and any treaties which do not give us that equality with other nations of the world shall cease to exist as far as we are con- cerned. There will be no probationary period of waiting from the time the revolution has become a success insofar as our military movement is concerned. There will be no years to wait for the abolition of extraterritoriality and the handing back to China of the Concessions. This will be done at once, and foreigners who wish to remain in China are cordially welcome to stay here and be governed by our laws. Nations who wish to trade with us may do so in accordance with our laws. But no one can stay in China, and no one can trade in China, and still be subject to his own laws alone without reference to the laws of the Chinese government. The idea of waiting for the abolition of these special and unequal privileges over any period of time does not meet with sympathy on our part, and we shall not submit to any such delay under any circumstances.
What is your attitude towards the United States, and Americans in China? I asked.
I like America and Americans, he replied, and we are glad to have nationals of your country living and trading in China.
Do you think the form of Govemment in the United States of America would be suitable to future China? I further inquired.
No, he said, your government in spite of its name as a democratic form of government, tends to be imperialist in nature. Our government, as I have said before, will be founded on "The Three Peoples Principles." The fact that you tell me that America is ruled by the people and is therefore a democracy does not make it so. A proper democracy does not hold possessions outside of its own territorial limits, and refuse to the people of those possessions the right to freedom and the right to govern themselves. In so doing we cannot consider America a government which respects the rights of the people, and thus it is Imperialist in nature.
Do you refer to the Philippine Islands? I asked.
Exactly so, he replied. The United States has no right to maintain its hold upon those islands outside of its territory. They are a separate people and are entitled to the right to govern themselves.
Have you ever been to the Philippines? I asked him.
No, he admitted, he had never visited the Philippines, but he knew their history and what their people wanted.
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I asked General Chiang whether if they were granted independence, under present world condi- tions, did he not think it would be necessary for the Philippines to maintain an army and a navy of their own to prevent aggression from other Powers with ideas of territorial conquest, and whether he thought, the people of the Islands were of one race and would be capable of governing themselves, with the probability of continuous civil war, and the immediate splitting up of the Islands by the mutual hatreds of their races. I told him that I had visited the Philippines and had travelled over almost every one of its far flung islands and knew that no one race in one island would be content to be ruled by a race of any other island. Nor could the many races in these islands get together to form a government, since the hatreds of the races against one another were strong.
This General Chiang discounted as being exaggerated, and stated that it had no bearing whatso ever on the right of the Philippine Islands to autonomy. The making of such statements, thought the General, was an expression of Imperialist trend of mind.
What do you think of Christianity and Missionaries in China? I questioned. Will the Nationalist Government continue to sanction Missionary activities in China, or will they be banned?
I have no quarrel with Christianity, said General Chiang, and Missionaries will always be welcome as heretofore. The elimination of missions from China is not part of our programme, and they may func- tion in this country without interference as always.
Will the exploitation of China's natural resources be permitted by foreign companies, I asked, and will foreign industrial enterprise and factories be permitted, or is it the intention of the Nationalist Govern- ment to favour the promotion of native owned industries?
We will not solicit foreign capital for China, replied General Chiang Kai-shek. It will always be welcome here. If foreign concerns wish to continue their factories in this country, or to open any other form of industrial enterprise, it will be given our hearty support in exactly the same manner as any Chinese enterprise. But it will only be permitted provided it is profitable to the Chinese people who work in these industries. The welfare of the workers comes first in our scheme of things. equally with the welfare of the enterprise itself.
As your armies gradually cover more territory it is probably necessary for you to take into your ranks many of your former enemy troops, I suggested. Is it not very likely that with the continual addi- tion of such troops your former enemies will out-number your own southern forces in your own ranks, and that eventually your forces will split and you will have a counter revolution on your hands?
There is no such possibility, he replied. In the first place, we do not take over our former enemy troops. Many generals in China are now sending delegates to us asking us to take their forces into our army, but we shall refuse to do so. We defeat and disarm our enemies, and after that is accomplished, such in- dividual soldiers who care to join our army make application to do so. We examine them, and if we think they are the right sort of material we take them in. We do not take all, nor many of them, by any Then they are given a course of education in the Three Peoples Principles of Dr. Sun Yat Sen. They are thus made one of us, and then distributed among our own forces, individually, and not in groups. Thus they learn our motives and principles, and make any idea of split in our ranks or counter revolution entirely out of the range of possibility.
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Most of these former enemy troops who join our forces are used in the building of roads, added General Chiang, and not in actual warfare.
By giving the labouring masses as much power as your Government is allowing them at present, and stirring them up by means of propaganda which is so ultrarevolutionary in nature, is it not possible that your labour will eventually attain so much control over your movement that it will dominate you complete- ly and possibly impede your movement when it opposes your own plans?
This is also extremely unlikely, he said. We have no fear of our labouring classes. We work with them, and teach them and train them. Our system is for the people, not over the people, and if we continue to lead them right and train them right, there will be no fear of opposition.
What will become of General Liu Yu-chun, who was captured in Wuchang? I then asked.
He will not be tried by a military court, answered General Chiang, but by a tribunal of the people.
He has held the city and the people of Wuchang shall be his judge.
Is it true that General Feng Yu-hsiang has joined hands with the Nationalist movement, and has agreed to co-operate with you in an offensive against Peking?
That is true, he replied, General Feng Yu-hsiang has become a member of our party, and he and his troops are assisting us now. They will join us in our offensive against Peking in the very near future.
I then asked whether it was true that Generals Wei Yi-san, Tien Wei-chien and Chin Yun-ao had sent delegates to Hankow in an endeavour to negotiate terms of peace with the Nationalist Forces.
Not exactly, smiled General Chiang. They have sent delegates to ask us to take them and their armies into our forces.
Will you do that?
We have not decided on any such move, replied the General.
What are you going to do about improving communications in China, if anything? I asked.
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